Transport (London)
Mr. Mark Field : I suspect that I shall not utter these words too often in my parliamentary career, but I entirely agree with the hon. Lady's sentiments. PPP is absolutely the worst of the available options. The Select Committee knows considerably more about the details, but it is clear even from a cursory look at the PPP document that the Government are saying that transport in London will get worse for at least the first seven and a half years of PPP's operation, assuming that it can be got under way.
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Ms Diane Abbott: Transport is one of the most fundamental issues for all Londoners, whether rich like some of the voters in the constituency of the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field), or poor like many of my constituents in Hackney. It is a crucial issue for people who use public transport, but also for those who do not. There are no more passionate advocates of investment in public transport than London taxi drivers, who know that in order to make a living travelling around London, it is essential to ease the congestion, which requires state-of-the-art 21st century public transport.
Transport was a key issue in the last mayoral campaign. Let me remind my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes) and Conservative Members that my party brought the whole weight of the Labour machine to bear in the last mayoral campaign in support of policies such as PPP—and it was humiliatingly smashed. A good man whom I personally like and admire, the then Member for Holborn and St. Pancras ended his national career in a regrettable way.
It amazes me that colleagues such as my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South are still trying to re-fight the mayoral campaign. Too many of my Labour colleagues are like Japanese soldiers in the jungle, still fighting the second world war. They cannot acknowledge that Ken Livingstone won on a policy that is directly contrary to those that my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South and others are still trying to peddle. Londoners were opposed to PPP. Ken beat the Labour party on PPP in the mayoral election. Londoners remain opposed to PPP. By the time the next mayoral election comes around, Londoners will not have seen any gains from PPP. Colleagues arguing that PPP is the way to get things done will have to eat their words.
On behalf of Londoners, I urge my colleagues to put an end to this petty and personal sniping at the Mayor, which is based on the ignominious failure of the Labour candidate at the last mayoral election, and to work constructively with him. When it comes to the big political issues, such as PPP, the importance of investment in transport, and the need to put pressure on the Treasury to make the money available, the people of London are solidly behind their Mayor. Parties and people who are seen to be involved in petty, personal sniping and retaining tittle-tattle about TFL—
Mike Gapes: Is my hon. Friend saying that she does not care about the way in which Londoners' money is spent? Is it right for the Mayor to appoint a Transport Commissioner and allow him to do what the hell he likes, with no one allowed to query or challenge it? Is my hon. Friend really saying that?
Diane Abbott: In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South, of course I care about Londoners' money. He is as knowledgeable about the legislation and construction of the Assembly as I am, so he will be aware that a detailed structure of scrutiny, appraisal and report ensures that the Mayor and TFL have to account for the money penny by penny and year on year through the committees, the Assembly and the reporting systems. The structures exist for scrutiny and to make the Mayor accountable. For my hon. Friend to imply otherwise suggests that he has not read the legislation or has not been to Romney house recently.
Ms Abbott : Yes, it is vital. This is where my hon. Friend swept up the tittle-tattle with which he has been detaining the Chamber. Of course it is vital that there is scrutiny and accountability. Fewer public officials in this country have more statutory scrutiny and accountability structures and requirements than the Mayor. Londoners may set their minds at rest. If there is any problem about scrutiny and accountability in relation to the Mayor, I suggest that my hon. Friend takes it to members of the Assembly. The responsibility for scrutiny rests fairly and squarely with the Assembly. Let us kill this notion here and now that there is no scrutiny or accountability where the Mayor is concerned. If anything, the legislation and institutional arrangements provide for an excess of scrutiny and accountability.
On the questions raised about TFL, the people of Ilford are as dependent on transport as anyone else. They will therefore be surprised to read that my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South seeks to detain the Chamber this morning with all sorts of whinges and tittle-tattle from nameless people at TFL, rather than to call for more money for transport and an end to the misbegotten public-private partnership, or to work more constructively with the Mayor.
I know that there are many hard-working and pleasant people at TFL, who are no doubt kind to their grandparents, small children and animals. However, as my hon. Friend will be aware, there has been a long-standing issue at TFL about the overall quality of management. I have heard colleagues make the same point about project management, although not everyone at TFL has been lacking. It would be surprising if the new Transport Commissioner did not bring in new people to address the systemic failures in management. Indeed, it would be remiss of him not to. My hon. Friend has gone sweeping the corridors of Romney house for tittle-tattle about complaints about the new management structure, and brought it to the Chamber as if it constituted a substantive critique. The sort of whinges and complaints about Americans with which my hon. Friend has sought to detain the Chamber are inevitable when one is trying to strengthen a management structure that is notoriously weak, with all due respect to individuals. They are inevitable when one is trying to put in place international expertise, to fill the gaps and to make TFL an institution that can manage a 21st century transport system for a 21st century city.
The people of Ilford would prefer a Member who seeks to work positively with someone who is, after all, the elected Mayor. When you sneer at the notion that Ken Livingstone was elected Mayor, you sneer not at the individual, but at the thousands of your Ilford constituents who came out and voted for you. You need to take the views of the people of London more seriously.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I remind the hon. Lady that she is supposed to address the occupant of the Chair, not the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Gapes).
Mike Gapes : I do not want to get into a personal argument with my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), but my constituents may judge me on my record and, no doubt, my hon. Friend's constituents will have things to say about her record in due course. It is important that hon. Members are prepared to represent the concerns that are brought to us. Just because someone has been elected does not mean that they can do what on earth they like for the period of their mandate. We have a duty as London MPs to ensure that public money—our money—is spent properly.
Ms Abbott : As I said, there is no question of the Mayor being able to do what he likes. The law does not allow that. Nor does the Assembly or, if I might say so, the Evening Standard. If there were no Assembly or institutional structures, the Evening Standard would keep any Mayor on his or her toes. The notion that I am saying that the Mayor should be able to do what he likes is nonsense.
To return to the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South on Transport for London, there are bound to be stresses and strains as TFL modernises and as the type of international management expertise that it needs is introduced. It would be highly surprising if none of the people who had to leave or modify their working practices had complaints. As I have said, it is surprising that an hon. Member, rather than raise substantive issues, has brought such tittle-tattle before the Chamber.
I want to comment on the congestion charge as a London Member who does not drive and therefore does not perhaps have the same heartfelt feelings about it as other hon. Members. Although I do not drive, I am well aware that in the 14 years that I have represented Hackney, increased congestion has meant that it has taken longer and longer to make the journey to Westminster. A journey that took 30 minutes in the rush hour when I was first elected in 1987 now takes between 45 minutes and an hour. Considering that London is the economic heartland and motor of this country, especially with the financial services in the City, something must be done.
People in other cities in Britain and around the world will examine how the congestion charge works in London. The Mayor has no choice but to see whether it can work. Something must be done because the congestion is an economic and social problem with potential health effects.
The congestion charge is a weapon, but I am mindful of the fact that in a borough such as Hackney many poor people have to drive. A single mother who works shifts as an office cleaner and has to get her child to nursery has to have an old banger to get around. I stand at bus stops and see those ladies. They are not rich, or even middle class, but because of the transport deficiencies in Hackney and other parts of London, they have to own a car.
In principle, the congestion charge is right, but as I have told the Mayor in private and now say in public, it must be thought through properly. He must ensure that it will not have an unnecessary detrimental effect while dealing with congestion. Some of the potential inequities must be thought through.
Mr. Mark Field : Speaking for myself rather than my party, I have no objection to the principle of a congestion charge. Ultimately, if we believe in free markets, road pricing is a potential element. However, there is a clear crisis in the public transport system, and the only viable alternative is for people to use their cars, so does the hon. Lady agree that now cannot be the right time to introduce such charges? The Opposition have also raised ongoing concerns about the fact that congestion has become worse with TFL's policy of reducing three-lane roads to two-lane roads and altering traffic light sequencing. When the charge is introduced, some of those changes may be reversed and prove that the congestion charge has improved the situation from very bad to not quite as bad.
Ms Abbott : I understand the hon. Gentleman's comments, and there is a sense in which the congestion charge is a gamble. It has never been done in a city of the size and density of London, so it must be carefully thought through, but I suspect that there will never be a right time to introduce the charge. It would have been better to see a step change in the quality of public transport before we introduced the congestion charge. However, if my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South had spent some of the energy that he spent on petty personal sniping against the Mayor on trying to get the Chancellor of Exchequer to provide the funding and support needed to give Londoners the public transport that they deserve, his constituents would have reason to be grateful.
I do not want to detain the Chamber, because I know that many hon. Members want to speak. However, it would be wrong for this debate to pass without reminding the Chamber that London's elected Mayor retains the support of most Londoners for his transport policies. In particular, all the polls show that he retains the support of most Londoners for his opposition to PPP, and that Londoners are grateful to TFL and the GLA for the improvements that have been made to bus services.
Londoners are looking to hon. Members on both sides of the House to stop engaging in the petty warfare that stems from the mayoral campaign, to look forward and to work constructively with the Mayor. No one can say that he has not attempted to run an inclusive administration, and to work with people. The time is long overdue for some of my colleagues to put their anger and bitterness about the mayoral campaign behind them and to seek to work constructively with the Mayor. The people of London deserve no less.
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